Comments on: Skepticism and Buddhism

By: Roger Tomasius

Roger Tomasius — Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:00:46 +0000

Without wanting to diminish anybody’s devotion – as far as I know, the 16th Karmapa’s body was put in a box filled with salt between his death and cremation.
This is a common method for the preservation of
rinpoches kudungs (dead bodies) in Tibet.
The salt that becomes saturated with the body fluids and water is later passed around as a relic and spiritual remedy among believers. The bodies, naturally, shrink quite a lot. What probably happened is that someone in Rumtek matter of fact like mentioned that his holiness body had shrunk to the size of a child, not mentioning the salt because eveybody in the monastery knew anyway.
The message probably travelled to Western Buddhism Centers by word of mouth. Now, most people in these centers do not know about Tibetan mummification and embalming practices and so they interpreted the news in such a way that they thought Karmapas body had MIRACULOUSLY shrunk, whereas in fact it had just shrunk due to monthlong exposure to salt.
Many myths around Tibetan Lamas probably have similar roots, as much as I myself would love to believe them. How much these misunderstandings and illusions are deliberately exploited by the monastic establishment to boost people’s devotion I am not certain about.
Also, strangely enough the quotation on the Wikipedia site about Karmapa’s heart is attributed to one Radulfo Sanchez wheres as the man talking in the movie is Dr. Mitchell Levy. Mitchell Levy was Ch�gyam Trungpa’s disciple and Physician and later married his widow Diana Mukpo.
It ceratinly puts the obeservations in the film in a different light that they were not made by a non-Buddhist doctor but by a fervent believer who was deeply involved in the Karma-Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.
“The Lions Roar” is a film that once touched me deeply, but from a Sceptic Point of View it is just propaganda. Now, when you have a look at the Wikipedia article, the film is one of its primary sources!
This is the way myths are mulitliplied.
The Writers of the article didn’t even bother to read
Reginald Ray’s long interview with Mitchell Levy in which he honestly and widely realates the circumstances around Karmapa’s death and which gives a much broader and more differentiated picture.
I would like to know what really went on, hoping that there are exceptional beings who have found ways to deal fearlessly with death and pain, but from my experience with Tibetan centers and teachers, what happenes during Karmapa’s death may well have been the opposite of or something totally different from what the devotees want us to believe.

By: Alan

Alan — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:17:36 +0000

Hi.
I found this page due to the same research after have seen the article on wikipedia.
I’d like to coment that he seems to have died very young, he had a condition afterall he was in the hospital, but I can’t find out what he died of. I’m very skeptic of them not mentioning it on wiki.
I just wondered because it would be a little strange in case of cancer or something like that since his mind and body should be perfectly ballanced, or so I tought.

some other thing, in wiki they talk about a triple rainbow on his funeral, I’ve just seen a footage in a documentary and I’ve only seen a faint � rainbow.
I’m sure if it had been a triple, they’d had filmed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duOh1rfdG5I&feature=related

I wan’t to believe, but with this lack of objectivity I remain skeptic on this issue.

sorry about my english.

btw I’m not anti budhism. I’m just not a fan of organized religion

By: Josh

Josh — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 19:55:30 +0000

Why are ‘miracles’ only ever witnessed by one or two people, and the evidence never kept around?

Because it’s far easier to keep a lie going when only one or two people know about it. That’s not a negative response, by the way, just a realistic one. I think most miracles can’t be substantiated by a large group of people, because most (all?) miracles haven’t really happened to begin with.

And indeed – a wonder cure for all of our problems would be great, but I don’t think even Mork could hook us up with such a thing.

By: Johnny Relentless

Johnny Relentless — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 01:58:56 +0000

Why are ‘miracles’ only ever witnessed by one or two people, and the evidence never kept around? I think the only large-scale miracles that many people witnessed, happened to the Israelites, and that book is so old no one can really know what happened. Skepticism is a good thing, although I would love to have my belief systems shaken up by the witnessing of a miracle. Or at least something paranormal. Meeting friendly aliens with a wonder cure for all our problems would be ok with me, too. I’d even settle for Mork from Ork.

By: mdejess

mdejess — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 23:25:38 +0000

Thanks, Josh. I really look forward to your replies, for I can use some feedbacks from guys like you for my own use in getting a grip on what life is all about.

So far it is just keeping alive and healthy and living long good years, and then dying without causing but the least inconvenience to others.

Yes, I try also to extend some help to other people, by giving my own ideas of a good life if they ask me.

I wish other guys would join us here, of the same mentality and writing habit as ours — so far, and I hope we continue to be civil and cordial.

mdejess

By: Josh

Josh — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 21:51:06 +0000

mdejess: That’s a good question, one which I’ll answer in a blog post in a day or two. My response will probably be a bit long winded to stuff it all in a comment here.

By: mdejess

mdejess — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 11:11:41 +0000

I have some ideas I would like to test with you.

What do you find useful in Buddhism which you do not find or not as useful in Christianity?

No, I am not taking up the defense of Christianity, but just curious why Buddhism has found favor with supposedly intellectuals of the West, some minority of them but visible.

While I am sure there must be also a visible number although a minority of Buddhists also going over to Christianity.

And I would like to ask them similarly what they find in Christianity that is better for them than their own born into Buddhism.

Mdejess

By: Josh

Josh — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 22:16:39 +0000

mdejess: Ultimately, I agree with you. In all of the places where I’ve found information about this, the feeling I’ve had is that it was placed there to “impress”, to display that, in some way or another, Buddhist / meditaiton masters function in ways that “normal” people don’t. I’ve looked around some more about this occurrence after I wrote this post, and I’ve not found anything at all that is a reliable source. For the time being, I’m just going to chalk it up as.. well, Buddhist superstition. If the chief of staff from that hospital gets in touch with me, I’ll be willing to change my stance.

Regarding as to whether Buddhism is useful to an individual, I would say “yes”, but I’m a Buddhist, so I have a bit of bias. You can follow the Buddhist teachings without having to believe in such stories as I wrote about in the post above.

Also, regarding moderation: be assured, it was automated, and not my doing. I’m not sure why WordPress.com decided your comments needed to be moderated. You didn’t use any links, you didn’t use any words that spammers use a lot (no viagra, gambling, etc.). In short, I have no idea why that happened. As you can see, I didn’t change anything in ‘em.

Hope to hear back from you!

By: mdejess

mdejess — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:30:13 +0000

“Your comment is awaiting moderation.”

Well, that is interesting.

I always write without using uncivil language.

But even without writing in uncivil language I have met with censorship and exclusion from forums because I exercise a critical judgment.

So, I am interested to find out how the moderation of my comment will turn out.

mdejess

By: mdejess

mdejess — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 21:25:19 +0000

This piece of literature is of course beyond investigation now unless we exhume the remains of the subject, R. R. Dorje.

But its purpose is to confirm to believers that a Buddhist monk and leader died supposedly a strange kind of death or displayed a strange kind of death appearance, and therefore Buddhism must be worth whatever the advocates of Buddhism want to understand worth.

If you read accounts of the death of celebrities of other religions, you will come across such descriptive narratives intended certainly to impress upon readers that the system represented by the demised celebrities is worthy of acceptance and observance by people.

That is the only purpose served by the account of the strange conditions surrounding the cadaver of R. R. Dorje.

HOwever, Buddhist converts from the West of science and rational philosophy and scientific skepticism must ask themselves what is the usefulness to themselves of embracing Buddhism.

Shall we have a discussion on the usefulness of Buddhism to an individual and to a group and to society?

mdejess