I consider myself a skeptical person. In the past, I’ve had severe reservations when it came to believing in angels, spirits, ghosts, and other such things. I’ve expected that, when things are thrown up into the air, they come back down. I’ve expected that when living things die, they don’t come back to life. And I’ve expected that when people die, their bodies grow cold, undergo rigor mortis, and.. well, don’t shrink drastically.
What I’m talking about is Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, the sixteenth Gyalwa Karmapa. As can be seen on the Wikipedia page, under Karmapa’s death, it is claimed that after he died, his body, as per Tibetan tradition, sat up in the meditation position for three days. It is further claimed that during that time, his heart remained warm, and his body never underwent the effects of rigor mortis. At the end of the paragraph, there is remark that says:
Chief of staff Radulfo Sanchez had no medical explanation for this.
Now, what is a skeptic supposed to make of that? Hearts should, if they follow the typical pattern of death, not remain warm after the person has died. Remaining warm after death, unless you’re by a heat source of some kind, is not natural. Furthermore, bodies in a typical environment should undergo rigor mortis. And then, of course, there’s this line from the Wikipedia page:
During the seven weeks between his death and his cremation, Karmapa’s body spontaneously shrank to the size of a small child.
See my comment in the first paragraph, namely: bodies should not shrink drastically.
Of course, I’m extremely hesitant to believe the Wikipedia article based on the references that are cited. It appears that the references mostly come from a Dutch book, called Het Boeddhistische boek van Wijsheid van Liefde, which is a translation of the French book, Le livre bouddhiste de la sagesse et de l’amour. (For those of us who don’t speak Dutch or French, Babelfish reports that this translates to: The Buddhist book of love and wisdom.) If the reports about what happened after his death were in a non-Buddhist book, I’d be more inclined to believe it. As it is, Buddhist or not, that’s a bit more bias than I can swallow, at least with something so strange. I tried looking around on the internet for other sources, particularly with references to Radulfo Sanchez, but I had no luck in finding anything else at all, except on Buddhist websites. Again, nothing wrong with Buddhists (I consider myself one, after all!), but I’d like some “proof” from a non-Buddhist source, like a medical journal.
I suppose the issue that is more interesting as to whether or not it really happened, is how I would feel if I could verify for sure that it did happen. I don’t really know, truth be told. Such an occurrence is something that could (and most likely would) alter my world view; not hugely, but my views would certainly be shaken up a bit. A corpse sitting up for three days and remaining warm doesn’t really fit into my view of death. Corpses shrinking drastically also doesn’t really fit into how I view the world.
Ironically, while I’m Buddhist, I don’t really feel bad at all about having reservations in “buying” this story. The story goes that the historical Buddha advised his followers to not believe anything based on faith, whether it was passed to you through a teacher, a book, whatever. He said the ultimate teacher was experience. So, I suppose I don’t really have to believe the story, until I have a chance to sit with a dying Buddhist meditation master, and then also have the chance to see if his heart stays warm after death…
How about you? Do you think such things are possible? If so, what’s your take on it?
Update: Thanks to my friend Fig for pointing out some stupid mistakes I made.
14 comments
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March 19, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Fig
So, did someone open him up and stick their hand into his chest to feel that his heart was still warm?
March 19, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Josh
Heh, good point. I’m not sure how it would have been measured. I might have a clue if I could find any information about that chief of stuff. /grumble…
March 20, 2007 at 4:29 am
Yogi
Karmapa said ‘form is emptiness, emptiness is form’. In this context, it’s not that implausible…
March 20, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Nils
A toughie one could discuss and mull over for ages. My basic take on it is this.
Is this to be expected? No.
Is this possible? Possibly.
Is it paranormal? If you mean an anomaly, yes.
Does this mean anything more than a) it may, or may not, be an anomaly, which b) may, or may not, have happened? Of course not.
I hope the Karmapa had a nice life and was able to help a couple of others. I wouldn’t be bothered by it more than that.
March 21, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Josh
Nicely put Nils.
March 31, 2007 at 4:25 pm
mdejess
This piece of literature is of course beyond investigation now unless we exhume the remains of the subject, R. R. Dorje.
But its purpose is to confirm to believers that a Buddhist monk and leader died supposedly a strange kind of death or displayed a strange kind of death appearance, and therefore Buddhism must be worth whatever the advocates of Buddhism want to understand worth.
If you read accounts of the death of celebrities of other religions, you will come across such descriptive narratives intended certainly to impress upon readers that the system represented by the demised celebrities is worthy of acceptance and observance by people.
That is the only purpose served by the account of the strange conditions surrounding the cadaver of R. R. Dorje.
HOwever, Buddhist converts from the West of science and rational philosophy and scientific skepticism must ask themselves what is the usefulness to themselves of embracing Buddhism.
Shall we have a discussion on the usefulness of Buddhism to an individual and to a group and to society?
mdejess
March 31, 2007 at 4:30 pm
mdejess
“Your comment is awaiting moderation.”
Well, that is interesting.
I always write without using uncivil language.
But even without writing in uncivil language I have met with censorship and exclusion from forums because I exercise a critical judgment.
So, I am interested to find out how the moderation of my comment will turn out.
mdejess
March 31, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Josh
mdejess: Ultimately, I agree with you. In all of the places where I’ve found information about this, the feeling I’ve had is that it was placed there to “impress”, to display that, in some way or another, Buddhist / meditaiton masters function in ways that “normal” people don’t. I’ve looked around some more about this occurrence after I wrote this post, and I’ve not found anything at all that is a reliable source. For the time being, I’m just going to chalk it up as.. well, Buddhist superstition. If the chief of staff from that hospital gets in touch with me, I’ll be willing to change my stance.
Regarding as to whether Buddhism is useful to an individual, I would say “yes”, but I’m a Buddhist, so I have a bit of bias.
You can follow the Buddhist teachings without having to believe in such stories as I wrote about in the post above.
Also, regarding moderation: be assured, it was automated, and not my doing. I’m not sure why WordPress.com decided your comments needed to be moderated. You didn’t use any links, you didn’t use any words that spammers use a lot (no viagra, gambling, etc.). In short, I have no idea why that happened.
As you can see, I didn’t change anything in ‘em.
Hope to hear back from you!
April 1, 2007 at 6:11 am
mdejess
I have some ideas I would like to test with you.
What do you find useful in Buddhism which you do not find or not as useful in Christianity?
No, I am not taking up the defense of Christianity, but just curious why Buddhism has found favor with supposedly intellectuals of the West, some minority of them but visible.
While I am sure there must be also a visible number although a minority of Buddhists also going over to Christianity.
And I would like to ask them similarly what they find in Christianity that is better for them than their own born into Buddhism.
Mdejess
April 1, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Josh
mdejess: That’s a good question, one which I’ll answer in a blog post in a day or two. My response will probably be a bit long winded to stuff it all in a comment here.
April 1, 2007 at 6:25 pm
mdejess
Thanks, Josh. I really look forward to your replies, for I can use some feedbacks from guys like you for my own use in getting a grip on what life is all about.
So far it is just keeping alive and healthy and living long good years, and then dying without causing but the least inconvenience to others.
Yes, I try also to extend some help to other people, by giving my own ideas of a good life if they ask me.
I wish other guys would join us here, of the same mentality and writing habit as ours — so far, and I hope we continue to be civil and cordial.
mdejess
August 12, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Johnny Relentless
Why are ‘miracles’ only ever witnessed by one or two people, and the evidence never kept around? I think the only large-scale miracles that many people witnessed, happened to the Israelites, and that book is so old no one can really know what happened. Skepticism is a good thing, although I would love to have my belief systems shaken up by the witnessing of a miracle. Or at least something paranormal. Meeting friendly aliens with a wonder cure for all our problems would be ok with me, too. I’d even settle for Mork from Ork.
August 13, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Josh
Why are ‘miracles’ only ever witnessed by one or two people, and the evidence never kept around?
Because it’s far easier to keep a lie going when only one or two people know about it.
That’s not a negative response, by the way, just a realistic one. I think most miracles can’t be substantiated by a large group of people, because most (all?) miracles haven’t really happened to begin with.
And indeed - a wonder cure for all of our problems would be great, but I don’t think even Mork could hook us up with such a thing.
November 12, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Alan
Hi.
I found this page due to the same research after have seen the article on wikipedia.
I’d like to coment that he seems to have died very young, he had a condition afterall he was in the hospital, but I can’t find out what he died of. I’m very skeptic of them not mentioning it on wiki.
I just wondered because it would be a little strange in case of cancer or something like that since his mind and body should be perfectly ballanced, or so I tought.
some other thing, in wiki they talk about a triple rainbow on his funeral, I’ve just seen a footage in a documentary and I’ve only seen a faint ½ rainbow.
I’m sure if it had been a triple, they’d had filmed it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duOh1rfdG5I&feature=related
I wan’t to believe, but with this lack of objectivity I remain skeptic on this issue.
sorry about my english.
btw I’m not anti budhism. I’m just not a fan of organized religion